Monday, February 20, 2012

Diving into the Dreck

Most libertarians and anarchists are not really concerned with freedom or liberty or self-determination or property or the nonexistence of property or any of their other infinite set of synonyms for autonomy per se.  Their philosophies of personal freedom are quite literally personal.  The old insult that libertarians are in it for the weed is reductive, sure, but it has the element of truth.  To some degree or other, we are all in it for the weed, the guns, or the butt sex.  By we, I mean men, and I'll come back to that.

Most libertarians will tell you that they would be willing to countenance a more randomly dangerous world and most anarchists will tell you that they understand that their philosophy, were it somehow to become actual, would result in what we late-modern materialists would regard as poverty and material privation.  It is supposed to be a mark of bravery and/or sincerity to embrace a philosophy that would see you knocked down an economic peg or two, giving up the iPad in exchange for the ploughshare or what have you.  But ironically those reduction in circumstances do not lead to a decline in the advocates' position within the structures of power; quite the opposite: the dismantling of traditional hierarchy and authority advances the lower orders in which the anarchist imagines himself.  No number of caveats about a more horizontal world, a declined West, an equitable distribution of wealth or property or political determination undermines this fundamental truth in any way.  To some degree, all you dudes imagine an advancement in the advancement of your interests.

Now, tell one of these freedom lovers that every interaction with the state rests on a foundation of violence, and he will nod in considered agreement, but tell him that every interaction between women and men rests upon a foundation of rape, and he will throw up his hands in genuine bewilderment and cry that he is never going to rape anyone!  The theory is disproven.  This suggests that he is at the end of it willfully opposed to considering, really considering, his own supposed principles, less yet to actually using the analytic tools of his philosophy to observe and consider the world around him.  It is true that not every man rapes; indeed, most do not.  Most officials of the state do not enact violence; the IRS is full of pencilnecks; the cashier at the city-county building is not going to blow your head off when you're late to renew your dog license.  Still, we have no difficulty in recognizing the web of coercion underlying even the most banal interactions with the various agents of the state, even as we are astonished at the suggestion that the patriarchy functions in precisely the same way.

The difference is that men, when confronted with the specter of Woman, Ascendent, perceive the potential for an actual, relative decline in their own status, a meaningful giving-over of their own privileged position in the world to the benefit of someone else.  Never mind that the decline is meaningless within the context of a real equality; indeed, it is the currency with which we might all buy a better world.  Instead, they yelp like a gang of talk-radio benchwarmers confronted with the nightmare that some black guy, somewhere, got a job that might've gone to a white.  Suggest that we must fundamentally reorder our very civilization, and they are all on board; suggest that this might involve a total renovation of our ideas of sex and gender, and suddenly The Women are coming in a genocidal program to cut off all their johnsons.  Watching a group of soi-disant radicals circle the wagons against the very suggestion that men rule women--a statement so banal as to be a truism in any other circumstance--is one of the most laughable and pathetic sights imaginable.

If this most ancient and unyielding form of human inequity is of no interest to your philosophy of the destruction of all authority, then your ersatz philosophy is mere affectation, and your protests to the contrary are lies.  If you find yourself confronting the word feminism with questions about how there can be a feminism if masculine and feminine are false categories, and if you are impressed with your cleverness in this regard, then I invite you to consider your own anarchy, wherein the whole object of your obsession, the State, is a metaphor and an abstraction.

Nothing is as disappointing as discovering that one's self-described compatriots are fools.

286 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 286 of 286   Newer›   Newest»
John Kindley said...

Honestly, at the end of the day I just don't get it. I don't understand the post. I don't see the big hairy deal IOZ has made of it. Therefore, I see no need for a "total renovation of our ideas of sex and gender." Not ever having been much of a "bad boy" myself, I spent my fair share of adolescence being resentful of the famous and well-known and widespread tendency of women to go for "bad boys." Seems to me therefore that men aren't entirely, or necessarily even largely, to blame for women's "oppression" relative to women themselves. I would have been fine with a world in which all romantic contact was initiated by women. That's not the way the world works, however, and I met my wife because I approached her, deploying my game.

demize! said...

@PDA Welcome to America where everyone is upper middle class. Lol have we no ghettos or trailer parks. Are the rad fems. constantly renouncing their class and race privlege? Do you do that? If not its all an "affectation " a pose "dude".

mp said...

reality -- any large number you want

attempts to define anarchy -- 0

J-Ho said...

Ugh, who cares? METAL!!!

Anon said...

"(...)every interaction between women and men rests upon a foundation of rape(...)"

I am in doubt, IOZ. Since you are a man, does every interaction you have with your female readers rests upon a foundation of rape?

Or, since you are a gay man, it is your interactions with your male readers that rest upon rape?

Either way, I feel violated.

Anonymous said...

cocky john,

so shows of masculinity can be used to get what you want from women (a nice safe place for your dick). you see? "being a man" is how you dominate women. get it?

Solar Hero said...

I always pee sitting down now. That way there is no urine splash.

Saurs said...

Hi, John Kindley? I know you've got fucking on your mind and all, and that's grand, fucking is a lot of fun and so forth and I recommend it heartily, but fucking isn't really what most people are talking about when they're talking about women's oppression, and also: women don't exist to parcel out sex to you, they are not responsible for your sexual well-being (you've got a hand for that), and it's impolite to direct a conversation about women's second class political and social status towards your cock.

Girls approaching boys to get their fuck on isn't the end-all be-all of feminism, the point at which we hang up our hats, wipe off our hands and proclaim the job complete. Women do that now. Women have always and forever liked fucking and had the wherewithal to initiate it, although of course we have to suppress a good deal of our sexual desire, re-direct it towards what men want in an attempt to become an object worthy of desire and pleasing to The Gaze, and express what little remains in passive, stupid, self-deprecating and often self-destructive ways. The straight women amongst us have an especially difficult time of it, 'cos the preferred hetero forms of sex are boring, rape-y, generally limited to penetration and mindless jack-hammering, and focus exclusively on the male orgasm, which apart from being a wee bit unimaginative and tiresome is especially unhealthy for women who contract more STDs this way than any other sexual activity (and there's a shitload of them out there). Plus, there's the whole pregnancy deal in a world increasingly hostile not only to abortion but contraception.

Anyhow, your Resentful Nice Guy complaint that you have to be a bastard to get laid defies all known reality outside of whinge-y adolescent teen films and Douthat editorials and is one part wishful thinking to two parts misplaced rage; that you conceptualize sex in terms of predator and prey within a paradigm of complementary domination and submission speaks volumes. Also, the geek male-dominated subculture you spoke of previously is rampant with misogyny of the reddit, ickygirlparts variety. You're out of yer element.

Saurs said...

Also, dudebro commenters repeatedly asking the same deliberately stupid, offensive, and mostly rhetorical questions about the political credentials of their radfem enemies (wondering aloud whether they are, in fact, racist WASPs who aspire only to bed their swarthy poolboys and eventually fill the pant suits of yer Rodham Clintons, hardy har har) can, of course, follow the blawg IOZ so conveniently links to on his roll o' blawgs, where you'll find an actual community of radfems actually speaking with one another while, horror of horrors, recognizing and criticizing white, class, and cis-privileges, bewailing the empire, and advocating anarchy of a feminist flavor. Once there, you may find yourself linked to literally hundreds of other sites 'n' blawgs where you may gaze upon in wonder at more radfems of all stripes and sizes in their many and varied natural habitats. You're welcome.

demize! said...

Wow that sounds like an incredibly fun place! Im sure you get tons of the unitiated, and Im sure if you're any indication of the level of warmth they tend to stick around to denounce each others privlege.

Christopher said...

Like, is it okay to murder Iraqis because Saddam Hussein sucked? Everyone here probably doesn't think so. Yet it's all in good fun for many to advocate collectively punishing "males" for the crimes of benefiting from their "maleness."

Who, besides you, has advocated collective punishment as a response to collective guilt?

Admittedly, one of the people whose comments I skimmed over might have, but I don't recall, say, me or Jack Crow or IOZ ever having done so.

When IOZ talks about how awful and violent the government is, I could easily and truthfully say,

"Hey, my Aunt works for the government, and she's never hurt another human being in her life. She's actually incredibly generous, and she's provided invaluable support to me and my family over the years. Are you really suggesting that she should have Molotov cocktails thrown at her just because the CIA is full of dickheads?"

I've never done so, and I don't believe I've ever seen any commentator here do so either. An anarchist/libertarian/conservative's response to "the government oppresses people" is almost never "nuh-uh! I know people in the government, and they're nice!" but their response to "men oppress women" is almost always "Nuh-uh, I know men, and the ones I know are all nice!"

The question is why collective thinking in one case is acceptable and the exceptions can be left unsaid, and why in another case collective thinking is inconceivable and we have to assume that there are no exceptions.

Incidentally, I have no opinion on which human interactions are founded on violence. But, uh, IOZ pretty clearly does. It's not a good "gotcha" question to throw at the guy, is all I'm saying.

Personally, I spend a lot of my time reading Japanese tentacle porn comics, so I think my personal radfem credentials are somewhat in question.

Anonymous said...

@High Arka @3:29 : "forthcoming" was a premise of my argument. Try again.

@PDA @ 4:57: Congratulations on summarizing the thesis of IOZ's blog post! As for your PREVIOUS post, my point was that your stipulated "wot male privilege? where?" strawman is just that. The related question was whether you really think that the only just philosophy, given the existence of the patriarchy, is anarchy. If so, then 1) say so; and 2) I don't really give a shit about your argument because every anarchist I know (IOZ included, based on the content of his Foodie Fridays posts) isn't exactly living their moral convictions.

And no, I'm not defensive, I'd just appreciate some argumentation above the 12th grade level. Below that grade level the reading does tend to get my blood boiling.

Saurs said...

demize, that wasn't a request for you to join anyone, as most comments in most women's blawgs (feminist or no) are moderated in order to separate the wheat from the dudes who want to talk about murdering your cunt or whatever. If you can stand the painful exercise of shutting the old trap for a few moments, however, all your glorious, totally sincere questions may be answered, the veil will be lifted, arguments out of bad faith will be in future edited out of your responses, and so forth.

demize! said...

And the glorious ray of Aurora's dawn shines through. Maybe I shall do just that. Hopfully it wont be the angel of the morning come to decieve me.

Anonymous said...

based on the content of his Foodie Fridays posts

not to mention the archives, in which he brags about jizzing on the face of a teenager, etc etc ad inf. Come on people, sincere or not, IOZ is an utter hypocrite, just like the rest of us. He just happens to be a really good troll. Or, to put in terms everyone here will understand:

It's the Foundation's money. Father doesn't have any.

Anon said...

"(...)
The question is why collective thinking in one case is acceptable and the exceptions can be left unsaid, and why in another case collective thinking is inconceivable and we have to assume that there are no exceptions.(...)"

Because rape is the exception? I mean, which percentage of the male population is composed of rapists? Come on, look it up. I can assure you, it's far from being a majority. And yet, more or less 100% of government officials can inflict violence on you and yours if you fail to comply with their will.

Rape culture is a reality, but it's not ubiquitious. I mean, sisters, I ask unto you, are most of your interactions with men based on the belief that he would be willing and able to rape you if you refused to submit to his will?

Because that's IOZ argument. I'd think it was silly if I didn't think he was just trollin'.

Anonymous said...

Q: "I mean, sisters, I ask unto you, are most of your interactions with men based on the belief that he would be willing and able to rape you if you refused to submit to his will?"

A: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=schrodinger%27s+rapist

Mr.Fundamental said...

oh come now, nony@9:55, you don't think that Saddam wasn't plotting against the United States, do you? don't get too bogged down in the specific details because we all know the United States wanted to go and do to Iraq what it wanted to do. the rest is all excuses and vanity. the boys will be boys! geeshucks! what'd you expect?

the Navy ad might as well be "Men: A Global Force for Good"

High Arka said...

@"Forthcoming" Anon, meant those premises will be destroyed in a later post.

@Saurs, since IOZ is taking the coward's way out--or rather, never arriving at the duel at all--would you like to stand in his shoes and explain why men suck? Or what the patriarchy is? Or how it has any bearing on those of us here? Pretend this one is newly arrived from another planet. Explain why the males here are 100% guilty and culpable, and what they have to do to fix it.

Also, make the argument yourself instead of pointing toward years of your sisters' archives.

Anonymous said...

@High Arka @3:29 : "forthcoming" was a premise of my argument. Try again.

@PDA @ 4:57: Congratulations on summarizing the thesis of IOZ's blog post! As for your PREVIOUS post, my point was that your stipulated "wot male privilege? where?" strawman is just that. The related question was whether you really think that the only just philosophy, given the existence of the patriarchy, is anarchy. If so, then 1) say so; and 2) I don't really give a shit about your argument because every anarchist I know (IOZ included, based on the content of his Foodie Fridays posts) isn't exactly living their moral convictions.

And no, I'm not defensive, I'd just appreciate some argumentation above the 12th grade level. Below that grade level the reading does tend to get my blood boiling.

demize! said...

So @10:09 with your precious little bit of code you prolly keep handy just for occasions like this, you nullify this woman's valid ife experience not viewing men as potential predators. You link to something out of a Robin Williams movie in its fucking lunacy. You obviously have never experienced the fear of having to possibly get into fights, or get your ass kicked as lots of guys have and do. But I dont view my entire life's interections through that lens. This is paranoia. And I'll venture a good bit of projection. Is this the world according to Garp? Because the unoriginality of some of the rad fem here strike me to be parody.

Anonymous said...

Ignoring that unnecessary repost of 10:34...

@High Arka: my bad, I assumed that was shorthand for "be forthcoming about the existence of the patriarchy." I guess we'll wait for the argument then.

High Arka said...

@Christopher:

Who, besides you, has advocated collective punishment as a response to collective guilt?

Three problems here. Firstly, collective guilt is collective punishment. If you don't agree, perhaps you've never experienced full guilt before.

Secondly, if all males have this guilt, what about newborn infant males, male children raised in the occupied Middle East, male children raised in America by single Women's Studies professors, or white males raised by wealthy, emotionally and physically abusive single parent females?

The absolutist radical feminist command to stereotype these people as "guilty males" does not apply to these human beings (anymore than it applies to the rest of men, but then, these are examples that a well-meaning feminist might be stirred to thought by).

Thirdly, if there is no collective punishment--or no action taken as a result of this mass culpability--then what of it? Is the entire message of this new feminism "feel guilty"? If so, can a mother just tell her sons "feel guilty," and then the work is done once they put on a hangdog face?

Of course not; collective guilt implies (and will result in) collective punishment of a greater magnitude than the guilt itself.

Regarding your "my Aunt works for the government" example, yes. An individual can be sweet and good and still participate in a bad system. The government has offices, stated protocol, security forces, etc. Millions of people could show up at your door individually and say, "I'm from [the government]."

That doesn't exist for the "patriarchy." There are male bigots out there, but they can't be accurately identified with yellow stars or even a "male appearance." To slur an entire group based on rigid, traditional notions of sex and gender is the very thing that many feminists will say they're against, but here, IOZ (and Saurs, et. al.) has no problem blaming all the people they think are "men" for the problems of all the people they think are "women."

"Collective thinking" can (rarely) work in a case where you can accurately define people, though it's always difficult. In the case of "the government," you can always go by "people who acknowledge that they work for the government" or "people who receive paychecks from the U.S. Treasury or an agency thereof."

With "men," there is no such standard, other than a biased, traditional one that completely dehumanizes genderqueer and transgender people in order to reach the desired end result of blaming problems on whatever "men" are.

Anonymous said...

i spent more time than i'd care to say thinking about this one. what it comes down to, i think, is that you're a pussy.

High Arka said...

Whichever Anonymous had the list of stuff about being paid more, being assertive, dressing like a slut, etc., here as promised:

Arguments for Bias

stillnotking said...

Thank God this discussion hasn't been completely derailed from the real point, which is the most effective ways for men to get laid. I hear Maxim has done some good articles; maybe John has the link?

Montag said...

GENDER REASSIGNMENT EVERY FOUR YEARS.

also: star wars wasn't real?

demize! said...

@11:59 You're thinking of "Poon Connoisseur".

High Arka said...

Re: stillnotking, note the creeping antilife disapproval of sex.

And the new religion continues its ascent. Science and feminism, march onward.

stillnotking said...

And how come they get to call each other bitches, right HA? I mean how is that fair?

Anonymous said...

no one's gonna cut your dick off, dude.

High Arka said...

Wait, who gets to call who "bitches"? Women calling women? And when did genitals come into this?

Christopher said...

note the creeping antilife disapproval of sex.

Damn that Darkseid!

And yet, more or less 100% of government officials can inflict violence on you and yours if you fail to comply with their will.

See, here's where you and I differ: I think that point of view is absolutely insane.

Seriously, when you pay a bus driver, or buy stamps at the post office, or go to a parent-teacher conference, you are really, honestly telling me that the most important thing on your mind is trying to be respectful and thinking through escape scenarios, just in case old Ms. Krabappel decides to pull out her taser and teach you a lesson in manners?

Because that is fucking nuts. The five foot tall fat chick behind the counter at the DMV isn't going to get rough with you if you decide to cut in line. She might call in one of the more violent branches of the government if she thinks it's necessary, but the manager at Wal-Mart can do that too. Hell, if you live in a good neighborhood you and everybody you know can do it too.

Arka, this is my response to you too: Most men aren't rapists, but most people being paid by the treasury department aren't bombing Pakistan.

Anonymous said...

BULLSHIT!

What Lenin say.


The (trolling) Dull Sycophant.

Anon said...

"(...)Because that is fucking nuts. The five foot tall fat chick behind the counter at the DMV isn't going to get rough with you if you decide to cut in line. She might call in one of the more violent branches of the government if she thinks it's necessary, but the manager at Wal-Mart can do that too. Hell, if you live in a good neighborhood you and everybody you know can do it too.(...)"

I'm talking about the institution of the State. Yes, the bureaucrat at the local bureau of bureaucracy probably can't meaningfully hurt me by his/her self, but they have "the more violent branches of the government" and the full force of the law against me if I refuse to comply with their demands.

Yes, the manager at Wal-mart also has trained thugs to enforce their will. And possibly the more upstanding citizens have the police at their beck and call. I agree 100%. But that is not the analogy IOZ made in his original post.

Most men don't rape women who resists their demands, and don't have rapists on speed-dial to enforce their will. The patriarchy is not a highly organized institution like the State. It doesn't have codified systems and protocols in place to coerce its subjects. Any enforcement, if at all, is entirely ad hoc (and takes much more often the form of peer pressure than rape).

The comparison IOZ made (and you apparently agree with) is absurd.

Strike a Pose: Affectation, PC Cookies, and the One Correct View of Gender Dynamics and "Feminism" said...

Interview with Wendy McElroy on feminism in America
...
At least on the periphery, I am active in the men’s movement. As a woman, the first thing I encounter is a blast of rage so strong that it can feel like hatred. They do not hate me for the person I am but because I am a woman and women are the privileged class that now oppress men, and do so with an air of righteousness.

fish said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fish said...

I mean, which percentage of the male population is composed of rapists? Come on, look it up. I can assure you, it's far from being a majority. And yet, more or less 100% of government officials can inflict violence on you and yours if you fail to comply with their will.

The percentage of "government officials" is what? 0.01% of the population?

200K rapes per year is roughly in the same percentage. Is it really that hard to see how this works?

Karl Franz Ochstradt said...

Having a pseudo-intellectual putz-supreme like Jack Crow lecturing you on The Patriarchy is like having someone first cut you 1000 times and then rubbing salt, vinegar, merthiolate, mercurochrome, glacial acetic acid and then raw sulfur into the 1000 wounds.

Biggest ego on the Toobz!

Anon said...

"The percentage of "government officials" is what? 0.01% of the population?

200K rapes per year is roughly in the same percentage. Is it really that hard to see how this works?"

And the percentage of men in the population is roughly 50%. You are comparing apples to black holes.

Oh, by the way, thank you a whole bunch demize!

When the first response to my question was a resounding "YES! All men are potential rapists" I was a bit concerned. I mean, with premises like that, what's the point of arguments?

Strike a Pose: Affectation, PC Cookies, and the One Correct View of Gender Dynamics and "Feminism" said...

Interview with Wendy McElroy on feminism in America
...
At least on the periphery, I am active in the men’s movement. As a woman, the first thing I encounter is a blast of rage so strong that it can feel like hatred. They do not hate me for the person I am but because I am a woman and women are the privileged class that now oppress men, and do so with an air of righteousness.

Montag said...

taking an ioz BLAWG as a literal prescription for "the next model of" anything is high-larious!

if a distaste for the cultural coddling of male sex drive and the way in which it manifests itself in the everyday lives of women is, "the creeping antilife disapproval of sex," then the denial of a woman's, or any person's dominion over their own mind and body is 'creeping slavery and disapproval of freedom.'

Anonymous said...

actions reveal understanding and your talking is a symptom of arrested development.

you're playing catch up and at least it's usually funny, but this is just the typical boring sanctimonious shit.

stick to the snark homie.

anne said...

oH, i liked that last comment .. at 11:15

anne said...

, and pen karl franz .. . again having something hard going for pen jac' . off for the laundering , eve ly

Picador said...

Re: prison rape statistics, here's a very nice breakdown of the numbers used in the N+1 and Guardian pieces and an explanation of what's going on:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2011/12/01/examining-mras-prison-rape-factoid/

Bottom line: women are sexually assaulted at about twice the rate of men in the US in 2007-2008.

Gabe Ruth said...

http://theotherjournal.com/amishjihadi/2011/12/13/never-mind-the-heterosexist-bollocks-heres-jamie-heckert/

Check it out.

Anonymous said...

@Picador

The care of the old folks for teir spawn ... so touching.

The Dull Sycophant

P.S.

What Lenin say.

High Arka said...

@Montag: new social structures of bigotry and hatred evolve and grow; they don't suddenly show up with Codes of Hammurabi. IOZ calling on people to be against men (along with the decades of other feminists performing variants on the same thing) is a necessary but not sufficient step in that direction, just like one drunk mumbling that the niggers have too much power, or one impoverished little German artist blogging that the Jews have too much power.

When would you prefer to stop the next trend in bigotry? When it's laughable mutterings, or when it's the mass standard with the state to back it up? We humans should protect one another whenever we can, drawing on our past experiences with hatred to inform us as to how it will try to gain power next. Patriarchy has been a dead horse for years--useful for purposes of example, ridden only in fantasy by the occasional die-hard chauvinist, who quickly comes crashing back to Earth, yet continually clubbed in academia and expanding SWPL culture to justify new exclusionary policies.

High Arka said...

Picador, you nub, didn't you know that 49% of statistics involve misreported numbers?

It's always funny to see a bunch of anarchists looking to state or major-media numbers to tell them what's really going on to all the individuals on the planet, and what meaningful connections can be drawn between it.

Anonymous said...

This was absolutely amazing. Sure, there's some hyperbole in there, and I think it sets up the comments nicely for some mansplaining. Because, you know there's nothing more that I like than a man explaining how he doesn't actually have more power by birth than most women can hope to gain in their lifetime. Equality my ass.

Montag said...

i don't read IOZ as calling people to be against men. i thought he was talking about power structures or hierarchies or somthin.

so, it was some hobo's racist ramblings that evolved and grew into the African slave trade? and hitler had a blog?

IOZ was threatening castration. so i guess i won't split hairs.

demize! said...

Everytime one of you goofballs says "mansplaining" I think of Ricky Ricardo. Do you all not realize how assinine these in group semiotic utilities sound to everyone who isnt a devotee. Plus they're corny.

IOZ said...

Oh man, you'll pardon the expression: it's Godwin's in-law!

High Arka said...

@Montag, in the event you're not being sarcastic and are actually missing the point, Mein Kampf was once as ludicrous and unheard-of as, say, IOZ before he garnered more readers. This stuff all starts somewhere.

On his own, IOZ might spiral out. Similarly, if IOZ is just expressing this obvious bigotry to make an ironic sub-point and spur interesting comments, he might not himself really believe it, but whether or not he's actually that filled with hate, there are people who actually believe that stuff, just like there are actually people who believe the stuff Santorum spews.

If IOZ is not actually such a bigot, it would be nice if he used his incendiary platform to call upon his followers to examine whether or not entire groups should be slurred from birth by presumed sexual identity. Even if you don't believe in the monster, if you help it grow and point it toward the village, it will still eat people.

If he is such a bigot, then his cowardly flight from backing up the slurs is--if predictable, given that it's bigotry--still sad. When in Rome, as said before.

IOZ said...

I have always been more of a landscape artist. I find architectural painting so dull.

anne said...

i oz, i had a question of his painting ,of his view ,of perspective , missed ,of what i was asking because of all of my .. fine brevity ,.. . last spring .. . oh do bring it back and put it here ..a new post would be nice .. .

puppylander said...

i now picture ioz with a 'fro, painting happy little trees.

IOZ said...

I did have the most amazing fro in high school. Just ask Dr Wilhelm. He used to fondle it incessantly.

anne said...

and a comment from mon tag , .. adolf and the architect ,of mon tag of what and how i do not know in this .. in not knowing him at all.. just of something he said once in response to something i said .. .

Montag said...

under a regime where people aren't allowed dominion over their own thoughts, i suppose there is a very real danger from thought crime.

IOZ, you are acting like a Nazi. that i don't disagree with HA on. in the future please nurture your ideas about equality with positive language only. thanks.

Montag said...

not an architect myself, anne, but i do read architectural drawings ad part of my trade.

anne said...

puppy's Oh !image face is a cloud looking over the i oz's wave of people image .. how lovely ,..happy trees .., my feathered hand on a wine glass ..wall flowering doodle doesn't fit in ..time to change it again .. after the laundering walk .. .

Anonymous said...

I SAID WE CUT OFF YOUR JOHNSON!

High Arka said...

@IOZ, architecture is landscape, both in actuality and in the context of the obtuse, yet cute metaphor you may be making.

C'mon, if it was all just a piece of postmodern commentary production, you already had this one's congratulations before the muck (dreck?) started to fly. Scroll way up. But you did, nonetheless, inspire Saurs and others to salivate with hatred that you may or may not genuinely share. Take some responsibility and address your own flaws so that they can see where they have been wrongly led. Might help them next time an earnest demagogue shows up.

High Arka said...

@4:50, teehee.

puppylander said...

arka, i think we're already in the "beer summit" phase of the thread.

until the next kerfuffle.

toodles.

High Arka said...

There's a joke in here somewhere, puppylander, about the attention span of overfed Americans.

But I forgot it. Let's go make fun of Santorum instead!

Christopher said...

"The patriarchy is not a highly organized institution like the State. It doesn't have codified systems and protocols in place to coerce its subjects. Any enforcement, if at all, is entirely ad hoc (and takes much more often the form of peer pressure than rape)."

But what is a law other than peer pressure? The reason we follow them is because we're afraid of what people will say about/do to us if we don't.

What I keep coming back to is that, yeah, what I've said is obviously reductive, and laws differ in important ways from peer pressure. But they're also at least somewhat analagous, and the term that you do accept, "the state" also lumps together several extremely different things together without concern for their extreme differences.

People seem to think that it obviously makes sense to say "Modern Afghanistan, the 19th century USA and the 14th century Aztec Empire are all basically the same thing" but to me those things seem so different in form and function that adding "the patriarchy" to the list doesn't do any damage or seem particularly strange. Deciding that the line between a formal and an informal system is the most important difference just seems arbitrary to me.

demize! said...

I hearby renounce the patriarchy and unequivocally accept my male privlege which I shall bare as Jesus did the cross on the way to Calvary. I will swear and attest that I shall rend my garments, and forever more don sackcloth and ashes. Ladies, gals, wymyn, on behalf of all men I offer to you my most humble and sincere apology. I shall henceforth ask, and inquire if it is indeed appropriate If I may get a boner in the rare occasion that one of your sisters elicit one. In the name of Buddah I so affirm.

Anon said...

This thread is kinda dead, but since I was personally addressed...

If IOZ had said "Relations between people and the State are analogous to relations between men and women, because the laws that enforce the first are similar to the peer pressure that enforces the latter". Then it would be an argument I could sort of agree with.

But he said "Relations between people and the State are analogous to relations between men and women, because the violence that enforces the first is similar to the rape that enforces the latter".

And that argument is silly.

Hopefully you read that, Christopher. Good night!

Gabe Ruth said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

You may take my life, but you will never take my testicles!

Joe said...

Or, Gabe:

You can have my Johnson when you pry it from my cold, dead hands

Joe said...

Sorry, make that "cold, dead hand.

Anonymous said...

Long time reader, first time poster.

So, I don't want to engage too much with the body of the post. It is, after all, pretty much on the money in terms of gender relations.

I would like to do some term correction though. Because IOZ operates within the US and he cites libertarians and anarchists in the opening paragraph I think he has a skewed American definition of the terms that (I hope) plays less well elsewhere. Namely, it sounds very much like you've been speaking to anarcho-capitalists who are uniformly rejected outside of the US by the 'mainstream' anarchist movement. The alternative is you have been speaking of/reading anarcho-primitivist or insurrectionist thought, which is not so uniformly rejected (to my disappointment) and I could see some of it leading to the thoughts you outline.

The central assumption you make about anarchists is that we all accept a drop in the standard of living as part of a revolution, but many of the historical and modern thinkers (and myself) don't think this is necessary, desirable, or fruitful (See "The Conquest of Bread" by Kropotkin or "Post-Scarcity Anarchism" by Bookchin for old/new examples of this line of thinking).

I also want to indicate that libertarian has deliberate Ayn Rand connotations in the US that are due to a deliberate campaign over the decades of the 'Objectivists' to oust anarchists of a piece of terminology that was traditionally applied to them (In Spain nominally anarchist organizations tended to declare themselves for 'libertarian socialism'). In Europe there are still people who are perplexed by people who call themselves libertarians from the US. Word hasn't quite spread yet I guess.

Anyways, I'd like to close with an apology for the wall of text. The tldr is I was introduced to this blog by a fellow anarchist, I am an anarchist, and both of us find ourselves in agreement with much of IOZ's perspectives (and we often gleefully exchange the skewerings of other personalities). It kind of sucks to have my entire political ethos painted as inherently misogynist based on misconceptions.

Alaya said...

Hearts, IOZ. Pink, fluffy, gender-constructed hearts.

Maybe posts like this will encourage some more actual females to comment. Though the crew you have around these parts is a pretty effective "No Girl Cooties Allowed", I've gotta say.

High Arka said...

@ET Anon: Perhaps if you weren't wedded to a term, you wouldn't be either perplexed or offended by the way a different group uses it.

Everytime this one thinks Americans can't get more arrogant in co-opting all known philosophy, Euros show up to prove who did it first and who did it better.

That said, you're correct that Americans have permuted the meaning of everything, helped along in no small part by that frothing maniac Rand. Of course, Europeans have changed the meaning, also, to something far beyond what it was when the Puritans ran away with their skirts hidden in their closets.

Only in mirrors do heroes find their equals.

High Arka said...

@Alaya, since Saurs and IOZ were both unable to debate the issue, would you like to?

After all the scathing accusations about penises were thrown out, everyone suddenly vanished and moved on to funnier things, like insulting Santorum. Does anyone actually care enough about the female/male issue to want to educate or explore it in a realm beyond the ad feminin?

demize! said...

"big genderconstructed fluffy hearts". Please just fucking kill me now. Where do they construct these people? @HA how are you going to "engender" pun intended, a debate with people who only think in slogan? No the hit and run anonymous smug will be the weapon of choice for those of that ilk.

High Arka said...

At least it's a noble death, rather than a snickering victory.

(Which logic explains why there are so few of those left.)

Haha! Cutting off penises! Humans never do ridiculous things like that!

Anonymous said...

Re:Alaya

Nothing like the palm like from the wolf-turned dog, huh, Monsieur?

The Dull Sycophant

Anonymous said...

Two threads of this, huh? Holy fuck, what a total display of lack of self-awareness; you're all privileged assholes, you know that right? You know that by virtue of being born in the Empire, you participate in the exploitation of the other 6.7 billion people on this planet. That you are, in fact, wealthier by far than the overwhelming majority of people on this hunk of space rock. A pseudo-intellectual circle jerk if there ever was one. Keep on sniping at one another over who subscribes to the most iconoclastic social theory while you, of course, continue to blissfully bask in the material pleasures, courtesy of the blood and depleted uranium bullets of the war machine.

I have lurked here enough to know, of course, that this is a BLAWG and we're all just BLAWGING here; ergo, this is all just clever mental masturbation. Cognitive dissonance is truly a gift of the divine. I guess, though, this would be the IOZ equivalent of "clown nose on, clown nose off." Novel.

High Arka said...

I'm going to go blog about how inane that remark was. Just as soon as I can find the "Ent

puppylander said...

9:37,

i don't read enough (just ask saurs) to be considered a "subscriber" to anything.

i find it interesting at the moment. i do see a link between "anarchism" and "radical feminism" in that commenters in both camps share a strong distaste for "coercion". but i think "coercion" (as a matter of imposition of will) may be a bit misconceived.

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